Fr. Yetzer Anthropologies in the Apocalypse of Abraham (WUNT, 1.438; Tuebingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2020). Stephen De Young begins the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 12. Stephen: Yeah, you dont get much worse than that. Its just regular I mean, the tent-covering of the tabernacle was made from goat hair. That makes perfect sense. Fr. Lord of Spirits: Sons of God, Equal to the Angels. If youre a pastor and youre hearing confessions and you hear people struggle with all the disciplines of the Church that are intended, for instance, to purify us, to help us participate in purification, then theres a lot of discouragement that can come from that, and I think a lot of that comes because of a kind of reduced vision of what this is about. And, supporting that within the Bible, is also in Leviticus 17:7, which is the very next chapterand remember, the chapter-breaks werent there originally, so this is just a couple paragraphs later at the end of the ritual for the Day of Atonementtheres the commandments that the Israelites are not to continue worshiping the goat-spirits of the wilderness. So it seems to me that Azazel is most likely one of those. Stephen: And these things that the evil one has wrought in the world are here in the world and need to be purged out, need to be purified, need to be atoned for in that sense, need to be removed, wiped away, blotted out. Fr. What theyre translating as ours should actually be translated as our sins. Theres a whole bunch of lexical stuff about that. Fr. Stephen: Yeah, theyre going to cast lots, and ones going to go for one purpose and ones going to go for the other. Fr. Fr. Hes our staff philologist. How does God make it happen?. But those were then publicly pronounced over that goat, and now that the goat has these sins on it, has the taint, the ontological taint from the peopleits sort of absorbed by that goatthat goat cant be sacrificed and cant be brought anywhere near the tabernacle, because now its totally unclean. It says that Christ is the atonement or the propitiation for our sins, not for ours only but also for the whole world. Fr. Well, who would have been doing this? Fr. Fr. Fr. Fr. Stephen: Antiochus IVEpiphanes was not his last name. Fr. So then what does the actual ritual itself look like? [Laughter] And the reason they pushed him off a cliff or a crag was the very practical problem of: What do you do if the goat gets loose and wanders back into down? Its sharing a meal with your god. But Im not sure that the body of the book establishes this. Stephen De Young is the author of God Is a Man of War and The Religion of the Apostles from Ancient Faith Publishing. Disclaimers, Pauls Works of the Law in the Perspective of Second Century Reception, by Matthew J. Thomas A Review, John the Presbyter: Eusebius Imaginary Friend. But its the only is an adverb, not an adjective. He says they put a reed in his hand; its the exact same word for reed. And then they took the reed from him and struck him with it. We are working to restore the entire archive of Fr. One of these beliefs concerned the Jewish origins of the New Testament. Stephen: Right, the goat for Yahweh. Now the thing that has been done in part is now being done totally in full. Stephen: and now Im going to take away your KJV., Fr. [Laughter] So instead, now, this goat, this completely corrupt goat, has to go outside the camp, the city, outside, back out into the bad place, and its going to Azazel. So the first question I mean, Ill start by saying I havent read the book of Leviticus, so excuse my ignorance on this, but I have read actually, after hearing the last podcast you guys did, I was doing a little bit of reading, and I read that the priest would lay hands on both goats, like on the goat for Yahweh as well as that Is that true, or would they not lay hands on the goat for Yahweh? Stephen is also the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast from Ancient Faith and author of the Whole Counsel Blog. All right, thank you! Andrew: [Laughter] Thats right. With the exception of a few details, there is nothing that a good Catholic or Protestant shouldnt be able to say a hearty Amen to. Fr. Photius: Im sorry. Its a word thats core to our understanding of Christianity, and yet there are about as many theories of atonement as there are Christian groups. Stephen: Yeah, I hope youve got a pigeon, a lamb, and a young ox.. On the Origin of Watchers: A Comparative Study of the Antediluvian Wisdom in Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions, The Antediluvian Origin of Evil in the Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions A Comparative Study, Response to Ken Ammi's review of my paper - "Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? So theres a whole bunch of things like that, where weve picked it up and we assume its there in the text, and it actually isnt when you go check. Ive said that about 20 times tonight, but this is I dont know. One is that he is not sacrificed to Azazel. Fr. Taking away the sin of the world is to remove the taint, the corruption, the impurity of the whole world, which is what the goat for Azazel does; he takes the impurity out, out of the camp and out into the wilderness, although in this case its the whole world; the whole world becomes the camp now. There are also some folks who want to suggest that Azazel isnt a being. Fr. "Atonement" is a word invented for the translation of the Bible into English, because there was no good English word for the concept it describes. 1 John 2:1 talks about Christ as the high priest who intercedes in prayer, and then 2:2 says that Christ is the atonement, not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Dan: Yeah, the second question was: What was it about their understanding of the goats blood that was understood to have a cleansing or sanctifying effect over the various parts of the holy of holies and the Temple that you guys discussed? Stephen: Yeah, you could pretty safely use the same list every year, because all of that had happened again. I expected the book to be my final vindication in dozens of ongoing debates with well-meaning brothers and sisters who keep telling me that knowledge of the Second Temple period (roughly the period in Jewish history from the reconstruction of the Temple at the time of Nehemiah through it its destruction in AD 70) is neither necessary nor helpful for understanding the New Testament. Stephen: Right, but what happens is, in sort of the symbolic mindhi, Jonathanof the Jewish people, sheep and lambs become associated with Passover. No sins are put on this goat that is being killedwell talk about that more in a minute. Its really, really cool. Andrew: Yeah, which makes no sense if you think atone means make up for or pay off or whatever, some kind of satisfaction theology. Stephen: Or even mercy-seat bands, if we want to be really old school. One of the big questions that Fr. So at the beginning thats Eden or paradise, but then everything outside of it, in comparison. Fr. Fr. Im going to describe this. Andrew: They are not, and most people who have breakfast are not breaking a fast. Sometimes, it is used to describe someone who is a foot taller than average; other times, it refers to someone who is many feet taller, an entire body length taller, or, perhaps, various body lengths taller. With this book, Fr. Fr. Stephen: Do you have to pay royalties now that you said that? Stephen: So the name of this angel is Yahweh-God. Immediately after they are mentioned, Genesis goes on to discuss how the heart and minds of people became continually evil, and Gods flood judgement in response. Sorry, I will not get tired. Dont the daily offerings cover it? [Laughter]. Thank you so much! This is going to be the Person who does this eschatological Day of Atonement. Photiusa lot of the problems we run into, theologically, and then that end up directly affecting our life in Christ, come from not giving the wrong answers, per se, but from asking the wrong questions. He is the pastor of Archangel Gabriel Orthodox Church (Antiochian) in Lafayette, Louisiana, and holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from Amridge University. The answer, according to Fr. I have this crazy new doctrine of God I want everyone to follow me on. But, yeah, theres this reference in 1 John 3:12, which makes reference of Cain being of the wicked one, who murders his brother. Andrew: Yeah, so we have in our notesbecause everyone loves it when we read from Enochic literature1 Enoch 10:8. How are you doing? But, yeah, the goat for Azazel has sins placed upon it, in contrast for the goat for Yahweh. Im like, why dont we start with: What does the Bible say? That perfect union thereby sanctifies, makes holy, purifies humanity in our basic composition. Dont mention that! Fr. Stephen: Im Um, actually"ing you in real time. Now, while "the psychological characteristics of the Nephilim are not specifically described in the Bible" neither is that they "had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength" nor that they were "generally pictured as being very proud, belligerent, sexually aggressive, and prone to conflicttall, strong, and belligerentphysically intimidatingNephilic characteristics of height, musculature, and psychopathology." About Fr. Andrew: Yeah, probably. So the first thing the high priest has to do is he has to, in order to prepare to enter the space, offer a whole ton of incensenot a little, not one scoop. (2015). But completely wrong. Stephen: Because that kind of response kind of begs the question, where its sort of like: Well, okay, what is St. Matthew talking about? Fr. Just so you all know, its really good. Product details Publisher : Ancient Faith Publishing (October 18, 2021) Language : English Paperback : 160 pages ISBN-10 : 1955890048 ISBN-13 : 978-1955890045 Item Weight : 7.5 ounces Fr. All right. So some people will try to will want to translate Azazel, instead of seeing it as a name, as a proper name, will want to translate it as something like the goat who goes away. This is where scapegoat comes from, because scape- like escape. Escape is go away: the goat that goes away. But no Christian disputes that the theology of the apostles is the standard for Christian orthodoxy, so saying the apostles were orthodox in a general sense is not a very punchy claim since this is true tautologically. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, it was created for English Bibles to translate a couple of words, one from Hebrew, one from Greek. Andrew: [Laughter] Yeah, actually we looked this up and we could find no link, but who knows? Copyright 2023 Apple Inc. All rights reserved. Maybe Fr. Andrew: Yeah, so this is really cool, and its a really I mean, this is a major kind of transitional thing happening here, where, as youve mentioned a number of times, that the sacrificial system of the Old Testament is basically kind of a management system, managing sin, managing corruption, managing taint and death, and so that what we get in the Second Temple literature is, as you said, once and for all, that theres going to be a Great Day of Atonement, to end them all, so to speak: the ultimate, the fulfillment of all of them. It becomes this mechanism that I sort of get benefited that benefits me, rather than something that I ritually participate in. Fr. Yeah, thats not in the Greek. Dr. Stephen De Young, Orthodox priest and an expert in ancient languages and a scholar of Biblical theology joins me for an interview about his newest book. Fr. But also that theres a fundamental question that gets asked in the West, and it comes under the banner of atonement, despite the fact that theres not a whiff of it that weve seen in our survey tonight, and thats not just How does salvation work? but How does salvation work from Gods end? Its not a question of How does salvation work? in the sense of What must I do to be saved? which is a salutary questionpardon the punbut it is How does it work from Gods end? Stephen: Yeah Heres where I have to say thats a mis-translation. Andrew: Yeah, which we talked about before, a few episodes back. Indeed, under the Law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. That last part, of course, often gets quoted out of context. Fr. So, using the color scarlet, using this wrapped around language. Fr. I mean, were doing daily offerings for sin in ancient Israel. I mean, that is just an overarching commandment of the whole Scripture: no idolatry, ever. And to get at that, we get some help from some of the Church Fathers. What Hebrews 9:11-14 says that the key event that made this transition between the purification of just this small sacred space to the whole of creation is when Christ enters into the heavenly sanctuary as high priest, which is describing his ascension into heaven. Theyre not out in the wilderness; theyre not encamping in tents. The Sons of God as a Polemic against Royal Immortality: A Philological and Literary Comparison of Genesis 6:14 and the Epic of Kirta, WHO 'FELL DOWN' TO OUR EARTH? Fr. We dont have them in the original language or even in Greek. Fr. Fr. And if youre listening to us live, you can call in at 855-AF-RADIO; thats 855-237-2346, and we will get to your calls in the second part of todays show. Fathers Andrew Stephen Damick and Stephen De Young focus on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. As a bridge between the discussion of Christ in St. Paul's epistles and Christ in the General Epistles, it is important to discuss a second factor in St. Paul's understanding of Christ as God. Fr. Its not like the priests are sitting there waiting, like I get to the end of vespers and sit and wait to see if anybodys going to come to confession. Fr. Stephen wrote this book in response to requests for an Orthodox perspective on violence in the Old Testament. Now, this doesnt mean, like, he was Santa, keeping a list all year, like the high priest was going around spying on people and seeing all the stuff they did and writing it down. Fr. Fr. Fr. And where does that actually first show up? This review considers the claims and notes some basic yet fundamental level issues. Fr. Andrew: So the blood is drained, the body is burnt. (Ok, technically the Orthodox Church denies penal substitutionary atonement while affirming substitutionary atonement, but most people, including well-meaning Orthodox who deny substitution completely, are not familiar with this distinction.) What we want is not just to understand salvation but to experience salvation, and understanding the cosmic realities and how we come to participate [in] them, ritually and every other way, is the way that that experience becomes real to us. When it comes to the biblical context, there are at least four issues to consider: Some English versions translate two Hebrew words by using the one vague, generic, subjective, and, I submit to you, un-biblical term giants. The answer, according to Fr. All right, so weve covered the basics of the Day of Atonement ritual and the two goats, here on Goat Week on The Lord of Spirits, and were going to get back in just a moment, but first were going to take a short break, so well be right back. Andrew: But we have two goats. This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. You know who you are. Yeah, yeah. Fr. Andrew: Yes, maybe well do that in a future episode. Thats where the feast comes from, the feast of lights. Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? Fr. Andrew: Yeah, and theres this distinction, then, that is made I mean, this comes in the creation, where youve got the whole sort of world of chaos versus the ordered space that God sets up. Fr. Photius: Yes, sir. Stephens book with glee, looking forward to having ammunition with which to spar with the next Protestant who told me that all we need is the Scriptures, or the next Orthodox or Catholic who told me that all we need is Scripture plus the Patristics. And it turns out that, before it ever got into the Bible, there was occasionally this contraction of the word at and the word one, so you get at-one, however it would have been pronounced back in, like, the 14th century. I had always assumed that the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity took time to develop, and that the apostles wouldnt have been explicit Trinitarians. [Laughter] That was a lot of more advanced theological concepts that were packed back into the word cover. In light of this, though, I would like to propose that from now on we refer to cover bands, Fr. Stephen: And consecrate them as sacred space. Fr. That is not a false etymology, although usually etymologies that go like that are; theyre just nonsense. I liked the book, and I am so grateful for the discussions it has spawned within my own Orthodox congregation concerning the role of historical scholarship in interpreting Scripture. Stephen De Young concludes St. Paul's letter to the Galatians, by discussing chapters 5 and 6. Andrew: Okay, but havent I heard that the goat actually got throne off a cliff? Thats why this. Fr. The more I learned about scripture, the more I felt the need for additional guidance on both the holy messages and the contextsculture, history, languages, geography, etc. Stephen: the altar, the ark of the covenant, the other fixtures of the tabernacle in order to purify them, in order to remove that taint thats been left there, thats gathered there because of the sins of the people, because of the sins of the community over the course of the year, to purify it again. So thats the idea. Stephen: Right. We understand theres kind of like a pipeline from there to here. Fr. There are sort of a handful, I think four or five, uses of it in the first century AD and later, and like half of those are by Plutarch, by one author. This is before Christs birth, an awareness that were managing the problem, were dealing with the problem, but were not solving the problem. Fr. Stephen: The goat who exists or the goat who creates Yeah. 35 min; APR 17, 2023; Revelation 12:1-9 Revelation 12:1-9. All right, well, the third half is going to be the shortest half. Fr. And I think this is really important to notice this because we say that Christ is the fulfillment of all things in the Old Testament, and here you have this Second Temple Jewish literature, a lot of it preceding, some of it being at the same time as the New Testament, essentially pointing to this: theres this big eschatological version of this thats going to be happening. Fr. But its in Leviticus 16, and the purpose of it We often think of it in terms of: Well, this is atoning for people or Israel and the bad stuff they did, but the ritual is explicitly stated to be atoning for the altar of incense, atoning for the ark of the covenant, atoning for the space within the tabernacle. Amen. Which is kind of a weird way to end the gospel. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was carried to him by the majestic glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,. Fr. Fr. Theyre cursing him; hes taking away their sins. . Stephen: was making this cloud so that he wouldnt actually see Yahweh when he appeared. So I dont think they were putting their sins on presbyters. God Is a Man of War You wouldnt like it. Fr. Heres the thing, though. We read everything, but cant respond to everythingyou send so much!we do save what you send for possible use in future episodes. Our sins came back to us!. Fr. The blood is used, the blood is smeared, wiped, used to cover. So one of them was Antiochus, I believe it was the [First, or else Seleucus III], was Soter: the Savior. Stephen: [Laughter] Nothing to do with thatas far as I know. Fr. Stephen De Young Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century Kindle Edition by Stephen De Young (Author) Format: Kindle Edition 357 ratings See all formats and editions Kindle $9.99 Read with Our Free App Audiobook $0.00 Free with your Audible trial Great on Kindle Great Experience. Another fun thing from Sunday school, ruined by Fr. Other sacrificial rituals where you see the laying-on of hands, thats to designate the animal as a sacrifice. They are not sitting down and having hors doeuvres with Azazel. Well, that is our show for today. All right. On our next episode, were going to be starting a two-part series on sacred geography. Thats for all of my Southern friends out there. God Is a Man of War offers a fresh interpretation of Old Testament accounts of violence by exploring them through the twofold lens of Orthodox tradition and historical context.
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